Annual Report 2023

Corporate Governance

Supervisory Board

The Volkswagen AG Supervisory Board performs its role through its members working together. It advises and monitors the Board of Management with regard to the management of the Company and, through the requirement for the Supervisory Board to provide consent, is directly involved in certain decisions of fundamental importance to the Company.

Information on the composition of the Supervisory Board and the Supervisory Board committees and their chairs as well as on the terms of office of the individual Supervisory Board members can be found in the “Members of the Supervisory Board and Composition of the Committees” section. Further information on the work of the Supervisory Board can be found in the Report of the Supervisory Board.

Overview

The Supervisory Board of Volkswagen AG consists of 20 members, half of whom are shareholder representatives. In accordance with Article 11(1) of the Articles of Association of Volkswagen AG, the State of Lower Saxony is entitled to appoint two of these shareholder representatives for as long as it directly or indirectly holds at least 15% of the Company’s ordinary shares. The remaining shareholder representatives on the Supervisory Board are elected by the Annual General Meeting.

The other half of the Supervisory Board consists of employee representatives who are elected by the employees in accordance with the Mitbestimmungsgesetz (MitbestG – German Codetermination Act). A total of seven of these employee representatives are Company employees elected by the workforce; the other three employee representatives are trade union representatives elected by the workforce.

The Chair of the Supervisory Board is generally a shareholder representative, and the Deputy Chair is generally an employee representative. Both are elected by the other members of the Supervisory Board.

The business of the Supervisory Board is managed by a dedicated office of the Supervisory Board Chair. The Chair of the Supervisory Board ensures the independence of the office of the Supervisory Board Chair and its staff and exercises the right to appoint and supervise staff in consultation with the responsible Board of Management members.

The Supervisory Board appoints the Board of Management members and, on the basis of the Executive Committee’s recommendations, decides on a clear and comprehensible system of remuneration for the Board of Management members. It presents this system to the Annual General Meeting for approval every time there is a material change, but at least once every four years.

Each member of the Supervisory Board of Volkswagen AG is obliged to act in the Company’s best interests. Supervisory Board members are not permitted to delegate their responsibilities to others.

In accordance with the rules of procedure for the Supervisory Board, each Supervisory Board member is obliged to disclose any conflicts of interest to the Chair of the Supervisory Board without delay. In its report to the Annual General Meeting, the Supervisory Board informs the Annual General Meeting of any conflicts of interest that have arisen and how these were dealt with. Material and not merely temporary conflicts of interest on the part of a Supervisory Board member should result in a termination of the member’s mandate.

The rules of procedure for the Supervisory Board stipulate that Supervisory Board members should not hold board or advisory positions at major competitors of Volkswagen AG or major competitors of a company dependent on Volkswagen AG and should not be in a personal relationship involving a major competitor.

Members of the Supervisory Board receive appropriate support from the Company upon induction as well as with respect to education and training. Education and training measures are outlined in the “Report of the Supervisory Board”.

Working procedures of the Supervisory Board

As a rule, the Supervisory Board adopts its resolutions in meetings of all its members. It must hold at least two meetings in both the first and second halves of the calendar year. The precise number of meetings and the main topics discussed are outlined in the “Report of the Supervisory Board”.

The Chair of the Supervisory Board coordinates the work within the Supervisory Board. He represents the interests of the Supervisory Board externally and represents the Company to the Board of Management on behalf of the whole Supervisory Board. Within reason, the Chair of the Supervisory Board discusses Supervisory Board-specific topics with investors and, in consultation with the Board of Management, may also discuss non-Supervisory Board-specific topics. More information on these discussions with investors is provided in the “Report of the Supervisory Board”.

To underline the importance of environmental sustainability, social responsibility and good corporate governance, the Supervisory Board has appointed an ESG (environmental, social and governance) officer. This role is currently performed by Mr. Hans Dieter Pötsch.

The Supervisory Board meets regularly also without the Board of Management. Each Supervisory Board meeting generally ends in a debate. Board of Management members are not present during this part of the meeting. The Chair of the Supervisory Board convenes and chairs the Supervisory Board meetings. If the Chair is unable to do so, the Deputy Chair performs these tasks. If the auditor is called to a meeting of the Supervisory Board or one of its committees as an expert, members of the Board of Management do not attend such a meeting if the Supervisory Board or the committee does not deem their attendance necessary.

The Supervisory Board is only quorate if at least ten members participate in passing the resolution. The Chair of the Supervisory Board or of the relevant committee decides the form of the meeting and the voting procedure for the Supervisory Board and its committees. Should the Chair so decide in individual cases, meetings may also be held using telecommunications technology, or members may participate in meetings using this technology. The Chair may also decide that members can participate in the Supervisory Board’s or its committees’ decision making in writing, by telephone or in another, similar form. Supervisory Board resolutions require a majority of votes cast, unless legislative provisions or the Articles of Association stipulate otherwise. Resolutions on consent to establishing or relocating production sites require a two-thirds majority of the Supervisory Board members. If a vote results in a tie on this item, the vote is repeated. If this vote is also tied, the Chair of the Supervisory Board casts two votes. Minutes must be taken of each meeting of the Supervisory Board and its committees. Minutes of a meeting must record the time and location of the meeting, the participants, the items on the agenda, the material content of the discussions and the resolutions adopted.

In individual cases, the Supervisory Board and its committees may decide to call upon experts and other appropriate individuals to advise on individual matters.

Further details on tasks, meetings, resolutions and working procedures of the Supervisory Board are governed by the rules of procedure for the Supervisory Board issued by the Supervisory Board and published on Volkswagen AG’s website at www.volkswagen-group.com/en/corporate-governance.

Supervisory Board committees

In order to discharge the duties entrusted to it, the Supervisory Board has established four committees: the Executive Committee, the Nomination Committee, the Mediation Committee established in accordance with section 27(3) of the Mitbestimmungsgesetz (MitbestG – German Codetermination Act) and the Audit Committee. The Executive Committee is currently comprised of four shareholder representatives and four employee representatives. The shareholder representatives on the Executive Committee make up the Nomination Committee. The Mediation Committee is comprised of two shareholder representatives and two employee representatives, and the Audit Committee is comprised of three shareholder representatives and three employee representatives.

Which tasks the Supervisory Board has generally transferred to the respective committees is described below. This does not rule out that the Supervisory Board will not transfer other tasks to committees in individual cases, where legally admissible.

At its meetings, the Executive Committee meticulously prepares the resolutions of the Supervisory Board, discusses the composition of the Board of Management and takes decisions on matters such as contractual issues concerning the Board of Management other than remuneration and consent to ancillary activities by members of the Board of Management. The Executive Committee also exercises the function of a “Remuneration Committee”, preparing the Supervisory Board’s decisions on questions about Board of Management remuneration. The Executive Committee supports and advises the Chair of the Supervisory Board. It works with the Chair of the Board of Management to ensure long-term succession planning for the Board of Management.

The Nomination Committee proposes suitable candidates for the Supervisory Board to recommend to the Annual General Meeting for election. Before presenting such proposals, it ensures that the candidates can commit the expected time to their role and identifies the personal and business relationships of the candidates to Volkswagen AG and its Group companies, to Volkswagen AG’s corporate bodies and to shareholders who directly or indirectly hold more than 10% of the voting shares in Volkswagen AG. In its proposals to the Supervisory Board, the Nomination Committee also takes into account the requirement for the Supervisory Board to adhere, in its proposals to the Annual General Meeting, to the specific targets it has set for the composition of the Supervisory Board and to the profile of skills and expertise it has decided on for the Board as a whole; in so doing, the Nomination Committee also particularly makes sure that there are no gaps in the Board’s skills and expertise as a whole (Skill Gaps Assessment). The Nomination Committee furthermore takes into account the diversity concept for the composition of the Supervisory Board.

The Mediation Committee has the task of submitting proposals to the Supervisory Board for an appointment or revocation of appointment of Board of Management members if there is no majority for the relevant measure on the Supervisory Board in the first vote. The majority involves at least two-thirds of all Supervisory Board members.

Among other things, the Audit Committee discusses the auditing of financial reporting, including the annual and consolidated financial statements, the group management report and the separate nonfinancial statement, including the sustainability report. In addition, the Audit Committee concerns itself with supervising the financial reporting process, the audit of the financial statements, in particular the selection and independence of the auditor, the quality of the audit, and any additional services provided by the auditor. Moreover, the Audit Committee concerns itself with compliance, the appropriateness and effectiveness of the risk management system and internal control system, including the compliance management system and the internal audit system; it also concerns itself with internal processes within the meaning of section 111a (2) of the AktG for regularly assessing whether related party transactions were conducted in the ordinary course of business and at arm’s length. In addition, the Audit Committee particularly concerns itself with the Volkswagen Group’s quarterly financial reports and half-yearly financial report.

Further details on tasks, meetings, resolutions and working procedures of the Supervisory Board committees are governed by the rules of procedure issued by the Supervisory Board for the respective Supervisory Board committees and published on Volkswagen AG’s website at www.volkswagen-group.com/en/corporate-governance.

Objectives for the composition of the Supervisory Board, profile of skills and expertise and diversity concept

In view of the Company’s specific situation, its purpose, its size and the extent of its international activities, the Supervisory Board of Volkswagen AG strives to achieve a composition that takes the Company’s ownership structure and the following aspects into account:

  • At least three members of the Supervisory Board should be persons who embody the criterion of internationality to a particularly high degree.
  • In addition, at least four of the shareholder representatives should be persons who, in line with the criteria of Recommendations C.7 to C.9 of the Code, are independent within the meaning of Recommendation C.6 of the Code.
  • At least three of the seats on the Supervisory Board should be held by people who make a special contribution to the diversity of the Board.
  • Proposals for election should not normally include persons who have reached the age of 75 on the date of the election.

The Supervisory Board is of the view that the above criteria have been met. Numerous members of the Supervisory Board embody the criterion of internationality to a particularly high degree; various nationalities are represented on the Supervisory Board and numerous members have international professional experience. Several members of the Supervisory Board contribute to the Board’s diversity to a particularly high degree, especially Ms. Hessa Sultan Al Jaber, Ms. Daniela Cavallo, Ms. Julia Willie Hamburg, Ms. Marianne Heiß, Mr. Mansoor Ebrahim Al-Mahmoud and Mr. Matías Carnero Sojo. The Supervisory Board comprises members of various generations. Independent Supervisory Board members within the meaning of Recommendation C.6 of the Code currently comprise at least the following: Ms. Hessa Sultan Al Jaber, Ms. Julia Willie Hamburg, Mr. Mansoor Ebrahim Al-Mahmoud and Mr. Stephan Weil.

With regard to the shareholder representatives’ independence from the Company and its Board of Management, the shareholder representatives have come to the following assessment in accordance with C.7, 8 of the Code:

Supervisory Board members Mr. Hans Michel Piëch, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Wolfgang Porsche have been members of the Supervisory Board for more than 12 years and therefore fulfill one of the indicators set out in C.7 of the Code regarding a lack of independence from the Company and its Board of Management. However, considering all the circumstances of the case in hand, the shareholder representatives are of the opinion that the aforementioned Supervisory Board members are nevertheless independent from the Company and its Board of Management. This opinion is based in particular on the following reasons:

  • Mr. Hans Michel Piëch, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Wolfgang Porsche, together with other family shareholders, are indirectly controlling shareholders of Porsche Automobil Holding SE, which is the largest single shareholder of Volkswagen AG. The management by the Board of Management of Volkswagen AG therefore economically affects the personal assets of Mr. Hans Michel Piëch, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Wolfgang Porsche.
  • The composition of the Board of Management has changed fundamentally several times during the tenure of Mr. Hans Michel Piëch, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Wolfgang Porsche. The incumbent Board of Management members have been in office for a maximum of just under six years. There are therefore no indications that Mr. Hans Michel Piëch, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Wolfgang Porsche would stop behaving in an impartial manner towards incumbent members of the Board of Management as a result of a long period of collaboration. There is also no other evidence of “tunnel vision” on the part of Mr. Hans Michel Piëch, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Wolfgang Porsche.
  • Mr. Hans Michel Piëch, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Wolfgang Porsche are not financially dependent on their remuneration as members of the Supervisory Board.

Aside from their Supervisory Board appointments, Mr. Hans Michel Piëch, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Wolfgang Porsche have no personal relationship with the Company or the Board of Management that could give rise to a material and not merely temporary conflict of interest. The Supervisory Board work of Mr. Hans Michel Piëch, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Wolfgang Porsche of previous years has also not given rise to any conflicts of interest.

The Supervisory Board member Mr. Hans Dieter Pötsch moved directly from the Board of Management to the Supervisory Board upon his appointment by the court in autumn 2015. This move was less than two years prior to his election as a Supervisory Board member by the subsequent Annual General Meeting in 2016, meaning that one of the indicators of a lack of independence from the Company and Board of Management, set out in C.7 of the Code, applies to Mr. Pötsch. It also cannot be ruled out that Mr. Pötsch still fulfills this requirement. However, considering all the circumstances of the case in hand, the shareholder representatives are of the opinion that Mr. Pötsch is nevertheless independent from the Company and its Board of Management: it is now more than eight years since Mr. Pötsch’s move from the Board of Management to the Supervisory Board. Mr. Pötsch has already been elected as a member of the Supervisory Board for a second time by the Annual General Meeting in July 2021. Since his transfer from the Board of Management to the Supervisory Board in October 2015, the composition of the Board of Management has also completely changed.

In addition, the Supervisory Board adopted the following profile of skills and expertise for the full Board: to properly perform its supervisory and advisory duties, the Supervisory Board as a whole must collectively have the required expertise, i.e. knowledge, skills and professional experience. For this, the members of the Supervisory Board must collectively be familiar with the sector in which the Company operates – i.e. the automotive industry – and be able to assess the business conducted by the Company. In addition, the Supervisory Board members as a whole must collectively have expertise relating to sustainability issues relevant to the Company.

The key skills and expertise that the Supervisory Board must have collectively as a whole are, in particular, knowledge, skills and professional experience

  • in the manufacture and sale of all types of vehicles and engines or other technical products (vehicles – manufacture/sale)
  • in the automotive industry and its transformation, particularly with regard to the topics of e-mobility and mobility services, the business model and the markets, customer needs and product expertise (automotive industry)
  • in the field of research and development, particularly of technologies with relevance for the Company (research/development)
  • in the fields of digitalization and digital transformation, software, artificial intelligence, automation, information technology and security (digitalization/IT)
  • in management positions and supervisory bodies of companies, including holding companies and start-ups, or large organizations (management/supervision)
  • in the fields of law and compliance (law/compliance)
  • in the field of sustainability, particularly with regard to environmental, social and governance aspects (ESG), e.g. in resources, supply chains, energy supply, corporate social responsibility, sustainable technologies and corresponding business models (sustainability/ESG)
  • in finance, accounting and auditing, above all special knowledge and experience of the application of accounting principles and internal control and risk management systems, sustainability reporting, the audit of financial statements and the audit and assurance of sustainability reporting (financial experts) (finance/ accounting/auditing)
  • in human resources (particularly the search for and selection of members of the Board of Management and the succession process) and knowledge of incentive and remuneration systems for the Board of Management (human resources)
  • in codetermination, employee matters and the working environment in the Company (employee matters).

The Supervisory Board has also specified the following diversity concept for its composition:

  • The Supervisory Board must be comprised such that its members collectively have the knowledge, skills, and professional experience needed to properly perform their duties.
  • It has therefore set targets for its composition that also take into account the recommendations of the German Corporate Governance Code. The targets set by the Supervisory Board for its composition also describe the concept through which the Supervisory Board as a whole strives to achieve a diverse composition (diversity concept in accordance with section 289f(2) no. 6 of the HGB). Attention should also be generally paid to diversity when seeking qualified individuals to best strengthen the specialist and managerial expertise of the Supervisory Board as a whole in line with these targets. In preparing proposals for appointments to the Supervisory Board, it should be considered in each case how the work of the Supervisory Board will benefit from a diversity of expertise and perspectives among its members, from professional profiles, professional and general experience that complement one another (including in the international domain) and from an appropriate gender balance. A wide range of experience and specialist knowledge should be represented on the Supervisory Board. In addition, the Supervisory Board should collectively have an extensive range of opinions and knowledge in order to develop a good understanding of the status quo and the longer-term opportunities and risks in connection with the Company’s business activities.
  • In proposing candidates to the Annual General Meeting for the election of shareholder representatives to the Supervisory Board, the Supervisory Board should take its diversity concept into account in such a way that the corresponding election of these candidates by the Annual General Meeting would contribute to the implementation of this concept. However, the Annual General Meeting is not obliged to accept the candidates nominated.
  • The aim of the diversity concept is for the Supervisory Board members to embody a range of expertise and perspectives. This diversity promotes a good understanding of Volkswagen AG’s organizational and business affairs. It also enables the Supervisory Board members to challenge the Board of Management’s decisions constructively and to be open to new ideas by avoiding groupthink. In this way, it contributes to the effective supervision of the management.

The Supervisory Board and Nomination Committee, in particular, are called upon to implement the profile of skills and expertise and the diversity concept within the context of their candidate proposals to the Annual General Meeting. The Supervisory Board also recommends to employee representatives and unions (which have the right to submit proposals in employee representative elections) and the State of Lower Saxony (which has a right to appoint Supervisory Board members) that the diversity concept, composition targets and profile of skills and expertise should be taken into account. The same applies to individuals entitled to make proposals should a court-appointed replacement be necessary.

The current composition of the Supervisory Board implements both the diversity concept and the profile of skills and expertise. The qualification matrix below shows the extent to which the profile of skills and expertise has been implemented, and indicates which Supervisory Board member has which skills and expertise.

QUALIFICATION MATRIX1

 

 

Vehicles –
manufacture/
sale

 

Automotive industry

 

Research/
development

 

Digitalization/
IT

 

Management/
supervision

 

Law/
compliance

 

Sustainability/
ESG

 

Finance/
accounting/
auditing

 

Human resources

 

Employee matters

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hessa Sultan Al Jaber

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

Mansoor Ebrahim Al-Mahmoud

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

 

Rita Beck

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

Harald Buck

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

x

Matías Carnero Sojo

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

Daniela Cavallo

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

Julia Willie Hamburg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

 

Marianne Heiß

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

 

Jörg Hofmann

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

x

Arno Homburg

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

x

Günther Horvath

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

Daniela Nowak

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

x

Hans Michel Piëch

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

Hans Dieter Pötsch

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

 

Ferdinand Oliver Porsche

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

 

Wolfgang Porsche

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

Gerardo Scarpino

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

x

Karina Schnur

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

x

Conny Schönhardt

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

x

Stephan Weil

 

 

 

x

 

 

 

 

 

x

 

x

 

x

 

 

 

x

 

 

1

The skills, knowledge and professional experience associated with the respective key words can be found in the profile of skills. A skill can be attributed to a Supervisory Board member even if they have expertise in just one subsection of the skill, i.e. for skill in vehicles, for example, either in the area of manufacture or in sales. The allocation of competencies is based on a self-assessment by the respective Supervisory Board member.

In addition, several Supervisory Board members, including Mr. Mansoor Al-Mahmoud, Ms. Marianne Heiß, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Hans Dieter Pötsch, have expertise in both financial reporting, including sustainability reporting, and auditing, including the audit and assurance of sustainability reporting.

As the long-standing CEO of the Qatar Investment Authority and its former Head of Risk Management, and from his management roles at a bank and stock exchange, Mr. Al-Mahmoud has gained particular knowledge and experience in the application of accounting principles and internal control and risk management systems as well as in the field of auditing. This knowledge and experience also relate to sustainability reporting and the auditing and assurance thereof: at the Qatar Investment Authority, Mr. Al-Mahmoud has reoriented the investment strategy toward investments with ESG goals and implemented a sustainability agenda, which was also included in the Qatar Investment Authority’s sustainability reporting. Mr. Al-Mahmoud therefore also studies companies’ sustainability reports in detail with a view to whether they fit the Qatar Investment Authority’s sustainability strategy.

Ms. Heiß worked as a CFO for a long time and, prior to that, worked for audit and tax consulting firms for several years; Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche is a long-standing member of audit committees and worked for an audit firm for several years; Mr. Pötsch is a long-standing member and chair of audit committees and worked for many years as CFO of Volkswagen AG and previously as Head of Controlling at BMW AG. As part of their long-standing work in audit committees, Ms. Heiß, Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche and Mr. Pötsch have also been involved in the auditing and assurance of nonfinancial statements, which relate to sustainability in the form of important environmental and social issues. Ms. Heiß was also involved in sustainability reporting and the auditing and assurance thereof as part of her former activities at BBDO Group Germany GmbH, and Mr. Pötsch as part of his activities at Porsche Automobil Holding SE. Ms. Heiß is also an ESG expert on the Supervisory Board of Porsche Automobil Holding SE. Ms. Heiß, Mr. Al-Mahmoud, Mr. Pötsch and Mr. Ferdinand Oliver Porsche track and monitor the latest developments in the area of sustainability reporting and the auditing and assurance thereof and contribute their expertise to Volkswagen AG’s Audit Committee.

Further details on the expertise of the Supervisory Board members can be found in their curricula vitae. The curricula vitae of the members of the Supervisory Board, which are updated annually, are available online at www.volkswagen-group.com/executive-bodies.

The Nomination Committee and Supervisory Board also took into account the diversity concept, specific composition targets and profile of skills and expertise (in their latest valid versions) in its proposals to the Annual General Meeting in fiscal year 2023 for the election of three Supervisory Board members. The composition targets, diversity concept and profile of skills and expertise were also taken into account in the court appointment of two new Supervisory Board members as employee representatives in fiscal year 2023.

Self-evaluation of the Supervisory Board

On a regular basis every two years, the Supervisory Board internally evaluates how effectively the Board and its committees are performing their tasks. This initially involves distributing a questionnaire to all Supervisory Board members, in which they are able to give their view of the effectiveness of the work of the Supervisory Board and its committees, the exchange of information with the Board of Management, and the depth and quality of the presentations to and discussions in the Supervisory Board and may suggest possible improvements. In particular, the members of the Supervisory Board are also asked to make comparative observations with comparable boards of other companies on which they also serve and, drawing on these, to make specific suggestions for improvement as required. Following analysis of the questionnaires, the findings and potential improvements are usually discussed at the next regular meeting of the full Board. Measures to improve the work of the Supervisory Board are continuously developed and implemented on the basis of the findings. The Supervisory Board members assess whether the measures have achieved the targeted improvements at the latest in the next self-evaluation. The most recent internal self-evaluation took place from late 2023 to early 2024.